Mixing SOS

Yeah agree about the vox. The mix took me a couple of hours. The 2nd version once done, also in a couple of hours was tweaked a couple of times. I think the same about the vox but thought it was mostly weak because my lame singing. I'm no Jim Morrison or Frank Sinatra, unfortunately. But you're right...too dry...needs a different approach.

EDIT: Just to generally conclude: I just went and listened to the raw tracks of that song I posted a few posts ago. The raw tracks are horrendous. The Addictive Drums sound awful. It's some Vintage Soft Rock trash sound. It sucks. It's all on top of itself. The kick is ill defined. The snare is all over the frequency spectrum and sucks. The hats sound like a 2006 Limewire 64kbs mp3 file. And not in a good way. In a shit way. All the drums sound like that. They sound nothing like real drums in a real room. The kick lives around 100hz. It's just overblown shit. The whole kit sucks. The bass I recorded sounds completely lame. It sounds like I strung some fishing line leader on my clothesline, ran a current through it, amplified it through a tin can on some string and plucked it with a coin. It's so lame. It resembles none of the bass sounds I like. The electric guitar rhythm is a complete stonkered nightmare. Unmitigated disaster. Sounds like no guitar I've ever heard and liked and appreciated. The lead and licks suck. Thin in the high end and muddy and lame in the low mids. Just unreal. Most people couldn't record such trash if they tried. The vocal is crap. Lame. Shit accent, shit inflection, no inflection. Sounds like it was recorded in a padded cell out of pure boredom with a Tandy mic for $12.95 including tax . It's clear to me that I know what tones I like...but I utterly suck and making those tones myself. Can't dial in guitar tones. Don't know how to dial in drums. Fail to copy tones I like from songs I like. This means that if that mix I posted sounds even remotely decent then it's not mixing I suck at. It's finding, getting and recording the right sounds. So I have to shut the hell up about all this mixing bullshit and completely rethink everything from the ground up. I simply don't know how to get the right tones/ sounds. Words can't describe how bad the raw tracks are. That's the cold fact. No wonder it's a living hell trying to mix them.

EDIT 2: Funnily enough, I think this is the EXACT thing I pissed and moaned about a couple of months ago in this very thread. So it shows I didn't heed my advice at all. I identified my raw tracks as the real problem but didn't do anything to address it and just continued to record lame sounds/ sources and then tried to mix those lame raw tracks in total frustration. Talk about dumb.
I think you're being way too hard on yourself. I'm sure if you went back and listened to the very first thing you've ever recorded, the stuff you're doing now would be leaps and bounds above it. I know when I do that with my stuff it really puts things in perspective.

And from a songwriting perspective your stuff is solid, you've got some great lyrical and instrumental hooks. You put a lot of time into polishing the songs and it shows. I wouldn't sweat your vocals either, they're unique and give you your own sound. The mellowness of the delivery reminds me a little bit of a JJ Cale type of vibe, which I like, but they're definitely uniquely yours.
 
Yep, thanks. Generally, yeah I'm happy with what I come up with for songs and certainly improvements have been made since my first recordings. The thing is, I started this home recording thing over 15 years ago. Right when I started, I took a job overseas and I was away for 15 years. In that time I didn't do recording, I just wrote a lot of songs on an old nylon string guitar. By the time I got back home I'd collected a bunch of recording gear and was ready to start recording. What I've come to realize is that I don't have any skills in creating the right tones. 15 years playing a nylon string guitar means I have never had to think about how to get X bass tone. Never had to think about how to get XY electric guitar tone. I've also come to know that stuff like EZDrummer and Addictive Drums...none of that stuff is played for your song. That's impossible. So you're not involved at all with recording the drums for your song or of shaping those drums in them mix for your song. The touch that the song needs is not there at all with vst drums.

I know plenty of people make great music with VST drums and I've even made some stuff that works. But largely it doesn't. VST drums are a straight jacket. But anyway, my main instrument is guitar and I play bass only because I can play guitar. And I think it's a deadset fact that I'm simply not recording the right sounds/ tones - because I don't know how to. Like I said, 15 years playing a nylon string guitar. I spent 0% of that 15 years experimenting with guitar tone and with bass tone. On top of that, I've got the vst drum problem. I think I'm tracking/ recording bad sounds...bad source material. Sometimes it works ok (I'm not a complete moron) but generally, I'm basically recording the kinds of sounds a 15yo kid starting out would record. They are amateur tones. Somehow, I need to become smarter or more pro in dialing in tones. Especially for guitar and bass.

I also have a shit room. I own a drum kit but can't play. Even if I could, I couldn't play it because it'd just be too loud. I need to buy a new house, magically learn drums AND how to record them nicely and suddenly learn how to record more pro sounding guitar/ bass tones.
 
I remember the good old days when I looked forward with anticipation to replicating so many of those great tones of instruments that I'd been listening to for so long.......but my acoustic guitar didn't "acoos", my clavinet didn't sound like Stevie Wonder, my bass didn't even sound like me and I'd been playing for 11 years at the time ! My mandolin sounded like a womandolin, my electric piano would've gotten me thrown out of any self-respecting jazz club and as for my electric guitar.....
"Oh ! My nose !
Ooww ! My face !!!
Aaaaarrrrggghhh !!!!!"

It sounded like a rubber band or worse still, an electric rubber band. And the only reason my piano sounded like a piano was because it's impossible for an upright piano to not sound like one, no matter how badly it's played. My vocals were, as some sweet lady once put it, "demonic" and the drums were a one-track nightmare of unbalance and either not enough snare or too ritzy high-pitched snare-y snare and cymbals distorting and covering everything.
Not absolutely everything was so bad that even a deaf person would reject it, but after 5 albums I concluded that I could do better.
So for the next 14 years, I persevered. Recorded about 100 songs, or thereabouts. Some of my favourite songs in all the world. Worked really hard, particularly on vocals, enlisted the help of many friends to sing and play. But working with an 8-track cassette portastudio with no direction from anyone and being self-taught, much of what I produced was a mess. Sure, it was better than those first 5 albums but still too much distortion, high levels etc.
But the last 14 years have seen me be a little more patient in many things, upgrading to a digital 12-track and thinking about things like where to put mics, levels, good sounds, different sounds on the same instruments, better drums, even if I have to play them myself and layer each sound bit by bit. And this is where my music has come on in leaps if not bounds ~ I no longer try to emulate sounds.
I couldn't be less interested in someone else's instrument sound. Rather, what I go for are approximations. And I'm interested in a sound that I like. I'm not going to spend half a day "dialling in" a guitar sound. Rather, I'll play about for a bit and as soon as I hear a sound I like, I'm on it. I might tweak a bit to see if it will become even more likeable, but that won't be for long. I'm like that guy that will go out with any girl rather than drool over one particular girl at the bus stop for months on end. And what I've found is that I don't have any particular instrument sound on any instrument. My bass guitars are varied. My electric guitars are varied. My keyboard sounds are varied. When I use brass or string VSTis, I never ever keep a template. I always start from scratch and I always record individual instruments and then build them up together. Yes, sometimes it's hit or miss, but the misses are few and far between.
Like you, I'm an impatient working person that doesn't have the luxury of days and nights and years on end to become an engineer and Tom Dowd didn't want to live next door to me with the noise my kids made ! I pick up what I can here and there but I like the concept of the guerilla recorder, working beneath the surface. My raw tracks are anywhere between OK and acceptable but I've learned how to string together a load of tracks into something I don't puke at when I listen to. In fact, though I can see the shortcomings in my stuff, I like them. I don't focus on what's not good about them, I enjoy the song.
The main rule of mixing is "don't suck." I know that sounds trite, but things have to sound pretty atrocious for me to get miserable nowadays. Once in a while, I might have to remix something. Or sometimes, a song might take me 3 attempts before I'm happy with it. But all that matters is that end result. If you have to "cheat", then "cheat." Les Paul was "cheating" in the 1940s.
Try to see if you can just come up with tones that you like, rather than going after tones that you want to copy. You never know.....
 
I also have a shit room
I don't even have that ! I decided long ago that no matter how "bad" "the room" sounded, it was not going to stop me from recording my songs. One of the things that used to drive me up the wall when I first came to HR was the way people kept going on and on about the room.
Now, don't get me wrong, I appreciate a good-sounding room. I remember my friend doing a vocal for me in the summer of 2019 and when I listened to the raw track after, I could hear this wonderful natural reverb in the room. It was delicious. I'd love a room with a high ceiling, wooden floor and luscious reverberance.
I don't have that.
I've never had that.
One of my friends that sings, she lives an hour away and she has young kids. We have to record in her pine shed if I want her voice. It's cramped, it sounds like a fart in a beer bottle, but at least we don't get the kids howling in the background with "curiosity." I've had to learn how to make that sound work. The rooms I have at home wouldn't be considered by Butch Vig as rooms he'd want to record in.
But who cares ? It's what I've got.
So I've learned to compensate for the room. Many years ago, I remember Armistice sharing how he recorded in his front room. I loved those songs he did and thought to myself, "I can't hear what's wrong with these..." And I remember Gekko Zzed talking about how he would set up at home and how one could use certain furnishings to one's advantage. He records people ! They obviously don't have a problem with his set-up. Ha, you Aussies !
So that helped me in, well, I'm going to say it at the risk of the flak, dismissing the importance of the room. It ain't important to me.
As I often say to the kids I work with, there are solutions to every problem.
 
Yeah, grim, that's awesome. And I hear ya. If there weren't solutions to every problem, all my stuff would sound completely lame. Frankly, even with my skill set and all that...the limitations, sure, I'm getting somewhere and shit, some of my songs have worked out ok. I'm certain that there are solutions and I'll find them. I'm trying to evaluate where I am so I know how to move on from where I am. I need to understand that getting it right at the source is key. I don't think I've fully appreciated that. It's not so much mixing. It's doing it right from the very start.

I'm not trying to copy tones or pro stuff. Not as such. I want to let the pro stuff inform my decisions. Not be a slave to them or just lamely obsess and parrot, tonally, what pro songs do. We all have our inspirations. We all have stuff that we draw from. If I'm honest, what has been informing my tonal decisions when recording up to this point has been novice tier. Bottom of the barrel decisions. And that's ok up to a point. I've spent over a decade never thinking of bass, electric guitar or drum tone. Never gave it a thought. I just imagined that when I recorded, all that stuff would just work out. It doesn't.

And so I guess here I am, after a million pages of this thread, traversing through all manner of mixing stuff and room acoustics and whatever...here I am back at the start...how do I want my stuff to sound? Got it? Yeah. Well...then make the stuff you're recording sound like how you want it to sound...when you record it! Don't wait till the mixing stage to do that. Do it now. At the start.

And I think that's the lesson. Get it right at the start. So now I have to work out how to do that.
 
Geez, that sounds alright! Did you do stuff to it to make it sound good? Did you play anything else on that or something?

Hey Monkey, the song and the mix is all your talent (I did a bit of light EQing and ran it through a 670 emulation but that's it).

Ha! Nice video too, HP.

Consider it as my modest tribute to your song writing, like I said before the stuff you put out is really good!
 
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Hey Monkey, the song and the mix is all your talent (I did a bit of light EQing and ran it through a 670 emulation but that's it).



Consider it as my modest tribute to your song writing, like I said before the stuff you put out is really good!
I have to admit your video sounds real good to me. Not like I remember it, that song. The acoustic tone is how I like it. I thought you may have strummed chords to it. It has that kind of pleasantly crunchy thing going on at times. I don't remember it like that. Do you remember what EQ stuff you did to it? I'd love to know. And that 670 emulation, is that making it sound a little more analogue or something? Certainly, the whole thing sounds more unified or organic or something.

I have to say HP, I'm very humbled by that rendering...the video, what you did to the song. Made my day!
 
The hats sound like a 2006 Limewire 64kbs mp3 file.
But you could fit 40 songs on a CD.
EDIT 2: Funnily enough, I think this is the EXACT thing I pissed and moaned about a couple of months ago in this very thread. So it shows I didn't heed my advice at all. I identified my raw tracks as the real problem but didn't do anything to address it
I would go small. The smaller speakers , watt amps, etc. Smaller and 'less' sounds better.
 
Hey Monkey, the song and the mix is all your talent (I did a bit of light EQing and ran it through a 670 emulation but that's it).
Fiddle sticks....YOU LIE! or Im misunderstanding ..Look at all the videos on recording techniques..Look at the gear..It is complex and a formula. Mixing seems to have evolved into what it is. Following the tech to what it is today. Better and easier than ever too work with.

The sound space is so vast it is scary.
 
Do you remember what EQ stuff you did to it?
Unfortunately I don't, it was a while ago.

And that 670 emulation, is that making it sound a little more analogue or something? Certainly, the whole thing sounds more unified or organic or something.
That was the aim, making it whole and catching them stray peaks but gently.

I have to say HP, I'm very humbled by that rendering...the video, what you did to the song. Made my day!
You're welcome!

Fiddle sticks....YOU LIE! or Im misunderstanding ..Look at all the videos on recording techniques..Look at the gear..It is complex and a formula. Mixing seems to have evolved into what it is. Following the tech to what it is today. Better and easier than ever too work with.

The sound space is so vast it is scary.
Hey Lazer.... WHO LIE! Is this response directed at me? I don't know what it all means, maybe I misunderstood too.
 
Fiddle sticks....YOU LIE! or Im misunderstanding ..Look at all the videos on recording techniques..Look at the gear..It is complex and a formula. Mixing seems to have evolved into what it is. Following the tech to what it is today. Better and easier than ever too work with.

The sound space is so vast it is scary.
Not sure what you mean here, Mr Beak.
 
Here's a mix that I think works much better than most the stuff I've done. The song is On the Line:
(Frankly, I think the verse vocals especially are very weak and lame...somewhat salvaged by the chorus bits)

 
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Hey Lazer.... WHO LIE! Is this response directed at me? I don't know what it all means, maybe I misunderstood too
There is no understanding the Beak.
Not sure what you mean here, Mr Beak
Is he ?
I'm not sure Mr Beak does either...
Does he ever ? Does anyone ?
Fiddle sticks....YOU LIE!
OK......
or Im misunderstanding
Rarely a truer word said !
Look at all the videos on recording techniques..Look at the gear..It is complex
It certainly can be.
But it all depends on what one is going for.
and a formula
I actually agree with this, in part. Many of the pros actually do seem to have formulas, even if they don't seem to be consciously aware of it. 'Formula' has become a dirty word which is unfortunate because really, 'formula', correctly understood in its proper context simply means "I'm experienced enough to know where to start and proceed from there, utilizing the skills I've acquired up to this point, with the proviso that I can push the envelope a bit, if need be."
Mixing seems to have evolved into what it is
True. And the good thing about this is that there are a number of ways of mixing. It's not a single-lane highway, even if some of our habits and preferences would prefer that.
Better and easier than ever too work with
I would say both 'yes' and 'no' to this. There is something positive to be said about the simplicity of the 1940-1966 mixing process.
The sound space is so vast it is scary.
I apologize for my first 5 replies to your arcane quotes. I was just having some fun at your expense. 😘
I like the fact that the sound space is so vast. But I don't find it scary, I find it liberating.
 
Here's a mix that I think works The song is On the Line:


Nice recovery. Yeah this works. Got to admit theyre getting better, better all the time..
There is no understanding the Beak.
Truth.

Nicely done Monkey, that third line 'on down the hill...' really pops with the chord change. Mix-wise all the instruments seem to sit nicely in their own space, at least on my speaker.

Ditto.

Not much to complain about that last one.

My recordings are pretty weak. Turning it up loud ...it doesn't sound so bad...yes it does..

You were saying that the vocals were bad. I was going to put up a short vocal example. A quick vocal out front trying to find the basic levels that will mix. To make you feel better about yourself. What the hell..chuckle...I hit the limiter right at the beginning..because...I luv you
 

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Nice recovery. Yeah this works. Got to admit theyre getting better, better all the time..

Truth.



Ditto.

Not much to complain about that last one.

My recordings are pretty weak. Turning it up loud ...it doesn't sound so bad...yes it does..

You were saying that the vocals were bad. I was going to put up a short vocal example. A quick vocal out front trying to find the basic levels that will mix. To make you feel better about yourself. What the hell..chuckle...I hit the limiter right at the beginning..because...I luv you
Well I know you're mucking around there but you've got a really good voice. Nicely rounded, good rock accent and depth. I could use a voice like that, Mr Beak!

And ah, to Human Planet...I put your, I guess that's like a mastering hey? I put it up on soundcloud. Much appreciated. I dl'd the mp3 from your youtube video. I don't suppose you still have a high res mp3 hey?
 
Nice recovery. Yeah this works. Got to admit theyre getting better, better all the time..

Truth.



Ditto.

Not much to complain about that last one.

My recordings are pretty weak. Turning it up loud ...it doesn't sound so bad...yes it does..

You were saying that the vocals were bad. I was going to put up a short vocal example. A quick vocal out front trying to find the basic levels that will mix. To make you feel better about yourself. What the hell..chuckle...I hit the limiter right at the beginning..because...I luv you

Didn't hear anything wrong with your vocals.. Nice song selection too. I was always surprised Marcy Playground didn't get more airplay aside from Sex and candy, that whole record was a sleeper 90s classic.
 
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