alternative to monitors: computer speakers?

B

Bullet Days

New member
i've read enough threads here about why mixing with headphones of any kind (flat response, diffuse field) cannot replace mixing with monitors that i'm leaning towards spending the money i intended for akg 240df's on some monitors instead.

but, before i do that, i was thinking of an alternative to monitors other than headphones. which brings me to computer speakers... my friend has a pair of klipsch (sp?) computer speakers that sound really familiar to me whenever he plays music through them. i realized that it reminded me of when we used to record in the studio and the engineer was doing the mixing through yamaha monitors. to me, those klipsch speakers sounded very flat, not like most speakers that sound like they were made to enhance the bass and notch the mids (the smiley face eq) like my altec lansings. the pair he had were just two desktop speakers (or maybe bookshelf, don't know the exact term), no subwoofer. i'm thinking--i'm no pro, don't have the budget for the monitors, and the klipschs are probably better for mixing than with my akg 240M headphones. i think i did fine mixing with my headphones--the results are on our website (click on the logo). but i get problems with i start messing with the stereo imaging or when i add some reverb. that is, the mix doesn't sound the same through normal speakers like in my car.

i think those klipsch speakers are less than $100. the akg 240 df's are around $150.
 
oh boy. oh boyoboyoboy

You are entering a world of hurt pallyboy.

IT isn't a good alternative but it shure as hell is an alternative!
 
hi guhlenn,

so, why am i entering a world of hurt? the only thing i can think of is that i may be ruffling the feathers of some of the elite here. those who have 80 years experience, those who own $3K speakers, those who whatever.

it's beginning to remind me of when i didn't know anything about guitar amps. everybody was trying to get me to buy a tube amp "cos they sound better." i've heard horrible sounds through $2000 marshalls, and sweet sounds from solid state fenders and peaveys. i think a lot of people are too biased by price. it's all relative, anyway...

i'm quoting myself here:

"i'm thinking--i'm no pro, don't have the budget for the monitors, and the klipschs are probably better for mixing than with my akg 240M headphones."

basically, i want to go towards a better direction. if decent speakers are better than decent headphones for mixing any time of day, then as an alternative to expensive monitors, computer speakers with a freq. response close to flat are a good option.

or am i completely, completely wrong here?
 
Hey Bullet Days,

Why not go ahead with your idea?, I can see your point. If the speakers your are talking about give you a better result than the headphones just go along with them. Sound is all what matters, and different people will use different kinds of equipment. I do not think people will tell you off for what you are trying to do [and even if they do, just listen and in the end let your ears decide for what you need to do]

Pro's probably have a different perspective and budget on these issues. Is is just as what you said about the valve/solid-state amps: When it sounds good to you it is good. What you think is good depends on your experience, but taste as well. Sometimes a "cheap" sound may sound very good, sometimes the "expansive" sound may be more what you want to go for.

Do not be afraid to experiment, in the past people tried all kind of things, whereas today we seem to have box X-Y which will solve any kind of "problem".

Just pick up from what others will tell you, but do not let yourself be lead by anyone as you are the only one who really knows what you want.But also be open-minded enough to hear the different ideas people propose, but then also try to understand where they come from: So a pro will give you different ideas compared to a fellow-homerecordist.

I think there are a lot of folks like you around here, and we are all trying to help and learn from each other, so just enjoy what others have to say, but in the end make your own decisions based upon your budget, ears, expercience and vision.


Oh by the way, what is it that I cannot listen to your mixes here, tried clicking on several things, but no sound at all................


Cheers,

Eddie
 
thank you eddie, and yes i will consider all suggestions. i just hope people remember that i'm not trying to replace the norm of using studio monitors to do mixing. when i have the dough, then i'll go get myself some yamahas. until then, pretty much any flat response loudspeaker will do. i like the lo-fi approach anyway.

as for the speakers, i actually have numbers regarding the frequency response: 20Hz to 20kHz, 0dB. i found that on stereo speaker buyer's guide site. it also said bookshelf speakers then to exaggerate the bass, so those are out of my list. my altec lansing speakers' freq. response is 70 Hz - 18 kHz. hmm, i'm assuming it's all the way down to 70 Hz because of the subwoofer. maybe i can use the ones i have and just turn the sub off?

if you're having problems with the link, the website is www.musicv2.com/artist/bulletdaze
 
20Hz to 20kHz, 0dB

I want those!

but seriously that spec is a freakin lie. And it is like you said it; your solution is crap, but hey, if you don't have anything else it's a lot better then mixing without any sound at all... check the mix ALOT with your headphones cuz those are good. You could however get some BX5 or yorkies or wharfies or... and get better (more acurate) speakers without spending too much.

I tend to disagree with the if it sounds good to you go for it comment. If you like cheap sound, that's possible, but I thought recording and mixing was supposed to be for releasing your product to the public (whatever public) so there is some standard as to what is good and not.

And if a $2000 marshall sounds like shit you either had the jcm900 or you don't know how to use it LOL. :eek: :D

edit * i don't know the klipsch.. i was commenting on the idea of pc speakers for mixing*
 
my comment on the marshalls was from my experience watching a band play at a small bar. the guitar sound was horrible and yeah, he was using the jcm900.

ok, so if 20Hz to 20kHz, 0dB as a spec to describe a flat response is a lie, then what is the true spec of a flat response?
 
bullet. i'll tell you a little story. once i was in a big studio years ago. the head engineer showed me how he worked.
basically he had a speaker box (you can get from radio shack cheap),
and switched between different cheap speakers. he DID have the big soffit
mounted monitors but rarely used them. what is NOT SAID , and i found this from experience. no speaker is perfect no matter what you buy. speakers are arcane beasts. anyway id recommend you mix and check your mixes on the following.....what i saw him doing.
a boombox, a pair of auratones(or you could use computer speakers as you say), listen to the mix over the dollar store 2 buck headphones - you would be surprised how many mixes done through superb monitors fall down on the mini phone test, a set of car speakers, a mono check speaker and maybe if and when you have more money a pair of yorkvilles.
i have here all sorts of spkrs ive picked up at yard sales cheap.
in summary imho its best to have a variety of speakers to test your mix out on. and i learnt from bitter experience that huge expensive studio monitors are not always the solution. there are a million arguments on both sides.
and youll never get a perfect solution because in my experience there isnt one no matter how much money you spend.
i would also check your mixes out on as many friends home stereos as you can. this is my best advice based on my own experiences.
peace.
 
sorry i misread your posts i thought you where listing the specs of your pc speakers. Nevermind. Manning knows his shit. Pay attention.
 
Nearly any speaker's response is going to fall off at the high and low end. The question is where the drop starts and how steep it is; for the lows that's partially dependent on size. A 10" driver is going to be flat lower than a 6" and certainly a 3" computer speaker. As for tweeters, it's mostly a measure of quality--a good tweeter should be flat to around 16kHz, but even really good tweeters will drop off pretty sharply after that. That's OK, 'cause we don't hear too well that high anyway.

But frequency response is not the only quality of a speaker. There's transient response, which I don't know the comparative measures, but there are dramatic differences in sound quality here.

If you are using computer speakers without a sub, you will have very little response below 100Hz. The stock drivers in the speakers will also blur the midrange detail, and probably roll off the highs early.

One solution I like is to replace the drivers. Fostex makes a 3" full range driver that is very good quality, fits in many computer speakers (with a little plastic removal), and is only about $25. A pretty good investment, since after you buy real monitors, you'll still have a cool set of PC speakers.

If you are using a sub, make sure it is properly balanced. Same comments on driver quality apply, in addition the computer sub cabinet is likely too small for good bass response. But it's better than nothing.
 
Yo ho ho ho dear folks,

Guhlenn: about the "Sounds good is good ..........and soundqualitystandards for the public."...............Difficult isn't it. Joe public listens to whatever comes out these days, and that all may sound a little different from how you would like it to sound yourself.

I do teach guitar and have a lot of students in the age group of 14,15 16 and up. Whenever they play their heroes [the latests rock cd's ] they tend to sound so, ...........well so the same, because of productionstandards and the kind of material being played. Most of my pupils do understand this, and most of them do not like the sound that much as well. It is too much the same. I am not talking about the material being played [the actual music-yes-even that sounds all very similar, but that is another matter] I guess what Joe public may not be aware why a lot of music sounds so similar, genres start to sound the same and......on and on. I guess we here may know a thing or two about it: Production methods, pro-tools and..............marketing purposes..........

So to cut a long story short: I agree with what you did say about sound, but I, myself, do not want my music to sound too much as what is going on now. Having said that, it does need to be good in audio quality and..........So people who really do care and listen will hear what you are trying to do...........

Okay, sorry for my long inroads into different areas from what we are talking about here..............

Manning1:..............Totally agree with what you did say about the speakers and them all sounding very, very different, so good idea to check your mixes over many different sources, will take a lot of time but..............

Adrian Fly:................Cool photo- shot, nearly as cool as the stuff you posted on Mick Mars and companions...............eh........that quote about Bluebear, is that really true, he seems to be such a nice fella.................

Cheers,

Eddie
 
The problem with getting multiple consumer speaker setups to reference on, instead of monitors, is that it would end up costing as much as a pair of Wharfedales or the like, because you would have to have REAL speakers in there somewhere, along with picking up a bunch of cheapies. Even if you had 10 pairs of $30 speakers, they would still all be pretty crappy, and lots of people have pretty good home and car stereos these days.

You could try the Klipsch speakers, but I'd just save up if I were you.
 
To me, the first and most important thing is not WHICH speakers you have, but how well you know them, the room you are mixing in and how well your work on them translates. What sounds good and what sounds bad are pretty much just opinions. However, there are certain things that are kind of the "norm" and that is not a bad thing. I love hearing albums that are different and unique, but I hate it it when one of those albums forces me to completely change the response (i.e. EQ) in my listening environment just to make it bearable. Personally, I would mix with decent headphones before I attempted to mix on a $100 set of computer speakers. My advice is to save up a little more and continue using whatever you currently have until you can afford some sort of even cheap studio monitors. Even if its just a pair of Events, M-Audio, KRK, Behringer or whatever. Personally, I use Dynaudio monitors, but a lot of the final pahse of my mixes is run primarily through a pair of Technics tower speakers with a Technics receiver because whatever I hear there seems to translate very easily to all other systems. However, only the very last phase of mixdown is referenced through those. I never use them to set tones, but purely to readjust volume levels of individual tracks a bit to make the mix more cohesive.

Regarding speaker "specs". I NEVER put any stock into them. There isn't an absolute standard it seems and specs can easily be measured in a way that will make them look a little more impressive. If we went by specs alone then we would all own cheap speakers. The specs on an expensive set may look frighteningly similar, yet the two always sound worlds different.

Then there is the fatigue factor as well. I can listen to my Dynaudio's at a pretty decent level for 10 or 12 hours and never really feel to fatigued. The Technics however I can start to feel after just an hour and a half. If you continue to mix for too long once fatigue sets in, inevitably you will probably spend hours redoing things later.

Having nicer speakers is about more than just better sound. My Dynaudio's allow me to hear things that most consumer speakers don't reveal. Some would say that if you don't hear those things on regular speakers than it doesn't matter. To me thats just nonsense. Maybe if it is just one little thing on one track yes, but more often than that its a little thing here and a little thing there. Addressing those issues is one of those keys to a really tight, punchy, yet clear and wide mix. Those little things can quickly stack up and become a major thing that really screws a mix up. Without the capability to accurately hear what those things are they can be very difficult and frustrating to find and fix.

Ultimately though, budget and usability and experience do factor in. If you can't afford something, then you can't afford it. If you have something and you know it that well and your work translates and sounds good, then an upgrade may not be a necessity. So, i am not saying to run out and take out a loan to get a pair of Dynaudio's, or PMC's, but do get something that will at least fix your problem for some amount of time. When you are ready for a nicer set of monitors, you will know it.

Good luck, and sorry for the rambling:)
 
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