can you hook up an tascam m-30 mixer to a tascam 244 portastudio??

hey all. i’ve got a sweet tascam 244 that i’m still learning how to use and i’m loving it, but i have my sights set on eventually getting a reel to reel and an analog mixer. the mixer of choice is a tascam m-30. but an m-30 doesn’t HAVE to be hooked up to a reel to reel, right? i’m wanting to get a mixer sooner than later, then eventually get the reel to reel to pair it with.

so i’m wondering if anyone has any experience or procedural knowledge on hooking up the tascam 244 tracks and playback to an m-30 or any similar analog mixer. i’m sure it would allow for some cooler sounds than just the onboard desk on the 244.
 
It’s not going to sound substantially different. There may be perceptible differences, particularly the mic amp since the 244 uses an unbalanced wide-range transistor-based input amp, and the M-30 has transformer-balanced mic specific mic amps. The main thing the M-30 would do is offer greater flexibility.

And whether or not a mixing console is needed for an open reel multitrack machine depends entirely on the machine. Once you get into 8-track and higher track counts, generally a mixing console is pretty much necessary. Some of the 4-track machines have onboard mic amps and simple 4x2 monitor mix faculties and a headphone amp. But even with those, if you want to do any more complex mixing including additional monitor mixes and incorporate insert or send type effects you need a mixing console.

And as far as interfacing an M-30 console with a 244 for mixing down the 4 tape tracks, I would just connect the 4 TAPE OUT jacks to 4 line inputs on the M-30.
 
It’s not going to sound substantially different. There may be perceptible differences, particularly the mic amp since the 244 uses an unbalanced wide-range transistor-based input amp, and the M-30 has transformer-balanced mic specific mic amps. The main thing the M-30 would do is offer greater flexibility.

And whether or not a mixing console is needed for an open reel multitrack machine depends entirely on the machine. Once you get into 8-track and higher track counts, generally a mixing console is pretty much necessary. Some of the 4-track machines have onboard mic amps and simple 4x2 monitor mix faculties and a headphone amp. But even with those, if you want to do any more complex mixing including additional monitor mixes and incorporate insert or send type effects you need a mixing console.

And as far as interfacing an M-30 console with a 244 for mixing down the 4 tape tracks, I would just connect the 4 TAPE OUT jacks to 4 line inputs on the M-30.
i was looking at eventually having both the m-30 and fostex a8 at my disposal. i’m pretty sure the fostex needs a desk. i’ve heard songs made by those 2 machines paired together and it sounds noticeably better than the same artist using a 244 on the same record, it had more fidelity and of course a lack of bouncing. it’s kinda close to the 244 sound but you can definitely hear it. but i just know there’s no reason to get both the mixer and reel to reel at the same time, and the m-30 is the cheaper and more “usable” of the two to get first.
 
Yes, a mixing console is a handy and more universally applicable tool in the studio IMO. It makes sense to acquire it first before the tape machine if you’re staggering the acquisition.

Yes you need a mixer for the A8, not a “desk”, just a console…the term “desk” as it applies to a mixing console is technically a larger console that has its own support legs or is otherwise on its own stand vs. being a tabletop console; one that you sit at like an actual desk…you certainly could get a larger format mixing desk to interface an A8, but it’s not necessary unless you have a large number of sources to sub-mix to the 8 tracks during tracking and overdubbing. Otherwise most consoles of at least 8 or more channels will do, and it’s particularly helpful if there are also multichannel monitoring facilities onboard. The M-30 fits this bill. Here is my Studer mixing “desk”:

IMG_0612.jpeg

Yes…I know I’m being language-retentive. I see people use the term “desk” for tiny mixers frequently and I don’t say anything. I’m saying something here simply to make the point you don’t need a larger format console to get the job done.

Anyway, honestly if I was you I would look at the Fostex Model 80 or R8 rather than the A8. They will be sonically very similar, but the A8 is the oldest and hardest to find of the trio, have lesser community support, will likely need greater TLC at this point just due to age, and only offers a maximum of 4 track simultaneous record whereas the other two have up to 8 track simultaneous record. The A8 has 8 tracks, but can only record a maximum of 4 at a time. All three are small 7” reel 1/4” 8-track format machines running at 15IPS. The Model 80 may be the sweet-spot, newer and more advanced than the A8, but not as impacted by some design “value engineering” that was implemented on the R8. Any of them are fine, but if I was looking for a 1/4” 8-track Fostex machine I’d be hunting for an 80.

Yes you would notice, generally, a fidelity difference between a 244 project and something done on a 1/4” 8-track 15IPS machine. Either can sound like garbage depending on the condition and setup of the machines; the capabilities of the engineer. Cassette 4-track projects can also sound really nice…”really nice” is according to the ear of the beholder of course and it’s a wildly subjective topic that people try to quantify using specifications which I think is dumb. We all know there is a more limited frequency range and headroom on a 4-track cassette machine compared to anything that is “more” (either wider track width or faster transport speed or something in the digital domain, for instance). But most cassette 4-track systems I would not call “lo-fi”, to the disagreement of many, either critics OR people that are seeking a “lo-fi” sound and think you have to have a cassette multitrack machine to do it. @famous beagle posted some stuff here on this forum in years past he and his wife multitracked to a 414mkII IIRC that, to my ears, sounds *amazing*…lush and full and very not “lo-fi”; a great example of what is possible. And I myself was part of a project in the early 1990s that was tracked to a 488mkII 8-track cassette-based machine that, with a substantial amount of care and attention at each stage of the process, ended up sounding like something you would not expect was tracked on an 8-track Portastudio. It generally depends on your goals and capabilities how your project is going to turn out and less so on the equipment IMO. BUT…your open-reel consideration has greater potential because of the transport speed as well as greater options in tape formulations/operating level. The track width on the 244 is just under 0.020”, and the Fostex 1/4” 8-track format is actually a little more narrow at right around 0.017”. But the Fostex operates at 15IPS which is quadruple the Tascam at 3.75IPS.
 
Yes, a mixing console is a handy and more universally applicable tool in the studio IMO. It makes sense to acquire it first before the tape machine if you’re staggering the acquisition.

Yes you need a mixer for the A8, not a “desk”, just a console…the term “desk” as it applies to a mixing console is technically a larger console that has its own support legs or is otherwise on its own stand vs. being a tabletop console; one that you sit at like an actual desk…you certainly could get a larger format mixing desk to interface an A8, but it’s not necessary unless you have a large number of sources to sub-mix to the 8 tracks during tracking and overdubbing. Otherwise most consoles of at least 8 or more channels will do, and it’s particularly helpful if there are also multichannel monitoring facilities onboard. The M-30 fits this bill. Here is my Studer mixing “desk”:

View attachment 138203

Yes…I know I’m being language-retentive. I see people use the term “desk” for tiny mixers frequently and I don’t say anything. I’m saying something here simply to make the point you don’t need a larger format console to get the job done.

Anyway, honestly if I was you I would look at the Fostex Model 80 or R8 rather than the A8. They will be sonically very similar, but the A8 is the oldest and hardest to find of the trio, have lesser community support, will likely need greater TLC at this point just due to age, and only offers a maximum of 4 track simultaneous record whereas the other two have up to 8 track simultaneous record. The A8 has 8 tracks, but can only record a maximum of 4 at a time. All three are small 7” reel 1/4” 8-track format machines running at 15IPS. The Model 80 may be the sweet-spot, newer and more advanced than the A8, but not as impacted by some design “value engineering” that was implemented on the R8. Any of them are fine, but if I was looking for a 1/4” 8-track Fostex machine I’d be hunting for an 80.

Yes you would notice, generally, a fidelity difference between a 244 project and something done on a 1/4” 8-track 15IPS machine. Either can sound like garbage depending on the condition and setup of the machines; the capabilities of the engineer. Cassette 4-track projects can also sound really nice…”really nice” is according to the ear of the beholder of course and it’s a wildly subjective topic that people try to quantify using specifications which I think is dumb. We all know there is a more limited frequency range and headroom on a 4-track cassette machine compared to anything that is “more” (either wider track width or faster transport speed or something in the digital domain, for instance). But most cassette 4-track systems I would not call “lo-fi”, to the disagreement of many, either critics OR people that are seeking a “lo-fi” sound and think you have to have a cassette multitrack machine to do it. @famous beagle posted some stuff here on this forum in years past he and his wife multitracked to a 414mkII IIRC that, to my ears, sounds *amazing*…lush and full and very not “lo-fi”; a great example of what is possible. And I myself was part of a project in the early 1990s that was tracked to a 488mkII 8-track cassette-based machine that, with a substantial amount of care and attention at each stage of the process, ended up sounding like something you would not expect was tracked on an 8-track Portastudio. It generally depends on your goals and capabilities how your project is going to turn out and less so on the equipment IMO. BUT…your open-reel consideration has greater potential because of the transport speed as well as greater options in tape formulations/operating level. The track width on the 244 is just under 0.020”, and the Fostex 1/4” 8-track format is actually a little more narrow at right around 0.017”. But the Fostex operates at 15IPS which is quadruple the Tascam at 3.75IPS.
you give very detailed responses that not only answer my questions but direct me towards better things that could suit my needs. i wanna thank you for that because it’s pretty obvious that i’m a newbie at this stuff so someone like you really helps me a lot.

with the desk: HA i’d like to see that thing wheeled into my room. or… carried into my room? it’s funny because to me, having a reel to reel and a table top console is very real deal stuff to me. especially if it’s analog. feels like i’m steely dan in the studio. but there really is so much to this world of stuff.

i’m a solo artist dude who’s trying to record all by myself, but im sure me and many others in the past know that despite what their intentions are, a limitation like “only 4 tracks at once can be recorded” is gonna weasel it’s way into ruining an opportunity. model 80…. i’m gonna look that guy up. i knew that a8’s were feeble, but i’m glad i heard it here because i’ve read about it in places where even the 244s they own will break down and are unreliable. in my experience, my 244 is golden.
 
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Thanks. I’m glad it’s helpful. I think I just tend to be detailed, not necessarily because someone is less experienced or whatever. Or, like, I don’t think of it that way…the response is tailored, or I try to tailor it to what I think is helpful regardless of where the other person is at in their journey.

Having moved my Studer desk three times now I can tell you there ain’t any wheeling around…I think it weighs around 300lbs…the legs have to come off and the modules all come out so the frame can be balanced on dollies…rolled up to the truck or moving vehicle, then carried onboard…modules are then reinstalled for safe moving, then do it all over again at the other end. Hang on to the tabletop stuff being your tools as long as you can lol. The last move required getting everything up to a second level. There are two stairways, the one inside the house but it has an impossible 90-degree turn and a low ceiling…the one in the garage has more clearance but doesn’t meet code in terms of tread depth…steep…my BIL and I got the empty frame up the inside stairwell, but we chose that maddening Tetris game with the turn and low ceiling because the stairs are carpeted allowing us to skid the thing up on the armrest. I think the frame alone is well over 100lbs. It was…a bitch. The tape machine is an Ampex MM-1000. If you don’t know what that is it’s close to the size of an upright “parlor” piano, and weighs over 700lbs. I unloaded every module I could remove out of the chassis to reduce weight and hand-carried those up, but it wasn’t practical to remove the transport. So think it was still maybe in excess of a 350lb chunk that needed moved up the stairs, and it was too big to physically go up the inside stairs OR make the 180-degree turn down the hall at the top. So up the garage stairs it was…me, two professional movers, a hand-truck and ratchet straps…one of the most harrowing things I’ve ever done…two below pushing, one above pulling. We nearly lost it once…tabletop…yes. And BTW there should be no equating the size of the device to the “professionalism” or whatever of the system or the capability of the user. So don’t categorize yourself based on anything like that. It’s not useful or relevant. All of this stuff is just tools for achieving some end and hopefully having a good time along the way. I’m not a professional by any means, but I have a number of what may be regarded as very professional devices, and on the other hand I also have a number of tabletop type devices of grades of professional acumen I enjoy using.

I don’t know if I’d call the A8 “feeble”, but just potentially needing more attention simply due to age. I’ve not compared the electronics between the three models to know if one might sound “better” than the other…sometimes progress in design means circuit development that’s cheaper to make, and this doesn’t help the performance. Other times that circuit development is cheaper to make but also has better performing components that let the company make its cake and the customer eat it. But it’s possible the A8 is marginally more robust in its design. But it just wouldn’t be my first choice for me based on its features and other practical matters. And as far as the 4-track simultaneous record, honestly I think you generally would be able to work around that if you’re working alone. It really comes into play in that circumstance if you have a fully-mic’ed drum kit and want to track those to discrete tracks, but I don’t find I do that a lot with an 8-track because that leaves little to no tracks for anything else…unless you use it to track drums and then dump the tracks to a DAW and continue the project there. With 8 tracks if there are drums I’m usually using no more than 4 tracks…kick, snare, and overheads, or a stereo sub mix of overheads and toms…sometimes there may be a couple kick or a couple snare mics that are sub-mixed to the individual tracks…so there are some thoughts on the 4 track simultaneous record. It works just fine I think if you’re building a solo project and can also be fine if you’re recording a band but tracking the different sources at different times. Where it would really get you is if you wanted to use it to track a full band doing a live studio performance. That’s where you get stuck with the A8. Otherwise you can make it work IMO. I really prefer to record a band live in the studio if possible and encourage the group in that direction rather than building the project serially by instrument or whatever, but that’s just my preference, so that’s why I immediately call out that relative “limitation” of the A8.

And on the reliability of this stuff generally speaking, the 244 is indeed a reliable machine and there’s lots of variation among products and manufacturers in that department, but everything from the 1980s, for instance, is now about 35-45 years old, and it’s harder and harder to find stuff in good operating condition unless it’s already been partly or completely serviced or refurbished. And simply put this is going to continue to progress. It’s just a fact. So anybody stepping into using vintage equipment just has to assume that’s going to be part of the package, particularly with a tape machine which is not just an electrical device, but a complex electro-mechanical device with lots of moving parts. You have the 244 and so have some awareness of this, but I think a lot of people don’t understand the potential maintenance needs and expenses…but it’s still my preferred echelon overall. I vacillate between digital and analog stuff all the time and always have both in operation, but I’m more comfortable and familiar and better enjoy using analog equipment, particularly with regard to the console and any outboard processing gear.
 
you give very detailed responses that not only answer my questions but direct me towards better things that could suit my needs. i wanna thank you for that because it’s pretty obvious that i’m a newbie at this stuff so someone like you really helps me a lot.
You'll find that Sweetbeats is one in a million. He's incredibly knowledgeable and extremely generous with his time and willingness to help out - a true gem on this forum (and others, too!).
 
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